Curse

dansamy · Dec 04, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I've made it through City and almost through Stygian before at least 3 of our team members dropped, one of whom was me. We were at the maw section when I D/C'ed (as the prot monk) making it near impossible for the group to continue.

Mysterial · Dec 04, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

In the city at least, we've been using snares, the walls of the terrain and tapping on the aggro bubbles of mobs to draw out and eliminate stragglers, allowing a fragmented (partial wipes or being split by patrol)/weakened (by err7s etc) team to take down significantly larger enemy parties.

That's sort of the point. You're not beating the monsters by fighting them, you're beating them by exploiting their terrible pathfinding AI. Every group I've heard of that's beaten an area has done it by using a 'tank' to hug a wall to bodyblock the monsters' terrible pathfinding so that the rest of their team can beat on the monsters in relative safety because the monsters switching targets doesn't do any good when you can walk two steps back and be out of range with them unable to follow. I suppose in that sense the builds aren't cookie cutter because once you've got the exploit down anything that can deal enough damage to beat the enemy monks is successful. But is that really fun?

I feel like Arenanet is unwilling or unable to fix the AI bugs/exploits so instead they've made it so that you have to use those exploits in order to win. Add in that the areas are too long, you can't experiment with henchmen, the non-chest drops suck (except for the very end where you get some greens), and the gemstone drops are way too infrequent (four gems for completing a 4-5 hour area when you need 100 for a tormented item is nuts) and I'm rapidly losing my interest. I think I'll just do a few chest runs for a couple of those unique skins and live with that.

Zehnchu · Dec 04, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

That's sort of the point. You're not beating the monsters by fighting them, you're beating them by exploiting their terrible pathfinding AI. Every group I've heard of that's beaten an area has done it by using a 'tank' to hug a wall to bodyblock the monsters' terrible pathfinding so that the rest of their team can beat on the monsters in relative safety because the monsters switching targets doesn't do any good when you can walk two steps back and be out of range with them unable to follow. I suppose in that sense the builds aren't cookie cutter because once you've got the exploit down anything that can deal enough damage to beat the enemy monks is successful. But is that really fun?

I feel like Arenanet is unwilling or unable to fix the AI bugs/exploits so instead they've made it so that you have to use those exploits in order to win. Add in that the areas are too long, you can't experiment with henchmen, the non-chest drops suck (except for the very end where you get some greens), and the gemstone drops are way too infrequent (four gems for completing a 4-5 hour area when you need 100 for a tormented item is nuts) and I'm rapidly losing my interest. I think I'll just do a few chest runs for a couple of those unique skins and live with that.

I’ll agree Anet needs to fix it, I mean it’s supposed to be a challenging area right. They should add in another special monster skill that give monster AI casters increased range by 80%.

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

That's sort of the point. You're not beating the monsters by fighting them, you're beating them by exploiting their terrible pathfinding AI. Every group I've heard of that's beaten an area has done it by using a 'tank' to hug a wall to bodyblock the monsters' terrible pathfinding so that the rest of their team can beat on the monsters in relative safety because the monsters switching targets doesn't do any good when you can walk two steps back and be out of range with them unable to follow. I suppose in that sense the builds aren't cookie cutter because once you've got the exploit down anything that can deal enough damage to beat the enemy monks is successful. But is that really fun?

I feel like Arenanet is unwilling or unable to fix the AI bugs/exploits so instead they've made it so that you have to use those exploits in order to win. Add in that the areas are too long, you can't experiment with henchmen, the non-chest drops suck (except for the very end where you get some greens), and the gemstone drops are way too infrequent (four gems for completing a 4-5 hour area when you need 100 for a tormented item is nuts) and I'm rapidly losing my interest. I think I'll just do a few chest runs for a couple of those unique skins and live with that.

Then go play PvP. "Smart" AI is extremely difficult to program. FPS's contain arguably the smartest enemy AI's, and even then, it still comes down to preprogrammed patterns (just that they will react and adjust based on the player's actions). Ultimately, the player can still figure out how the AI will react and play accordinly. If you want extremely dynamic battles, the only place that's possible is against real people.

LoKi Foxfire · Dec 04, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

Union is a great skill when the average hit against you is 35 or 40 (ie. when shelter is up). But Union is about worthless when you get hit for upwards of 200. The problem with Shelter in DoA is that it doesn't stay up long enough. Shelter is probably the greatest gift a Rit can bring a team. But in DoA it's gone in like 2 secs.

My rit is almost through NF now. I've basically taken vengeful all the way through. There's nothing better than tanking margontites better than my warriors.

Apparently you had probably both a crappy tank who didn't know how to body block and a Ritualist who thinks Ritual Lord is better than Soul Twisting. I beat the City using 1 Mystical Balthazar Dervish, me (GC + Winter + SV/AV), 1 BiP, 1 SS, 1 WoH monk, 2 SF nukers (one who dropped an hour in), and a Soul Twisting Spirit Spammer. Our Ritualist was great; he used a combo of Displacement, Union, and Shelter.

leprekan · Dec 04, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

#1) Given the number of people who have made progress through DoA, the area is not impossible.

#2) I have been in this with groups both cookie cutter (trappers) and random, and have made equal progress either way.

Success in DoA requires patience, coordination, and bringing proper counters/shutdowns. Knowing your enemy is the first step toward victory.

I suggest people read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, and learn a bit of strategy.

LOL,

So since we are weaker and need to appear strong ... the entire party should type /flex in front of the mobs? Perhaps since they are larger groups we should be more mobile and all bring charge? I for one am not going to pick up the non max white weapons they drop to use against them. The Art of War would only help if they were a thinking adversary

The mission is difficult no matter how anyone wants to portray it. Is it worth doing is the question.

Bocjo Bassannn · Dec 04, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Well down to two districts wonder how many by friday.... I think this is the first time a new area has opend up that floped so quickly. Everyone seems annoyed, mostly chest runing groups forming up now. Yeah and dont forget this is supposed to be fun.

After about 300 tries or so at the city mission I finaly got to see the gates of the city.... Pulled the first mob out and poof error 7 gg lost our heal monk 2 and half hrs of work... yes WORK down the drain. Failing a quest after several tries due to error7 ... yes we know your working to fix that simply isnt fun its insanely annoying... Every single group that I have been with that has done semi decently has had an error 7 ususally looseing a crucial person in our build resulting in us simply haveing to resign and start over again. This could be eased some by haveing a larger team size say 12 people then if your skilled you can afford to loose one tank because there is room for 2, you could even afford to loose a monk to error 7 if you set up correctly but as it is now. Looseing one player could mean no heals no tank no damage after several hrs of work.

Again I ask Gaile are you still laughing? We are not... I realy cant decide which is more difficult the hrs and hrs spent trying to join a pug group with a clue some paitence and that wont bicker like 4 year olds or the mission/quests itself.

Sir Skullcrasher · Dec 04, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Seem to me that peoples figured out what builds it take to make it in DoA. I only wish i found the right group (or time in that matter) to explore DoA.

XsX · Dec 04, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I've been hearing rangers are much needed in Domain of Anguish, something to do with changing attacks to cold damage. Either way I'm at the moment trying to get my ranger there at a rapid speed to either trap or use winter on them.

jaibas17 · Dec 04, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I dont care what people say, I simply not whine and try until I am able to finish the quests.

come on, people have already been able to beat city, stygian and torment areas, why wont people stop whining and try harder?

P.D. communication is very important, as well as the basics of aggro. I.E. making the tank hold aggro some seconds before the mobs see the enemy group is crucial to be able to hold aggro more.

there are several techniques, as well as strategies that help each area in a different way, so why do people still complain instead of thinking of ways to overcome each area by itself??

I am a Tank myself for example, and learning how to hold aggro, as well as having a build that can hold damage as long enough is crucial for survivability. lets take for example the first margonite mob of stygian.

With doylak, endure pain, signet of stamina, mantra of flame, as well as stand your ground from a paragon, and a spell breaker before aggroing the group, i can say that I was able to withstand at least 6 seconds+ by myself, enough time to hold aggro mob and my team able to wipe the first mob, 0 casualities, and apparently a good start.

please people, areas are not impossible, they are just a challenge onwards for people wanting rewards.

those who whine shall not be awarded with end game loot

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Hmm, it looks like someone just posted that they were able to beat Stygian Veil with 2 people + 6 heroes.

Not confirmed yet, but if its true, then it just shows that this mission working correctly.

Mysterial · Dec 04, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

Then go play PvP. "Smart" AI is extremely difficult to program. FPS's contain arguably the smartest enemy AI's, and even then, it still comes down to preprogrammed patterns (just that they will react and adjust based on the player's actions). Ultimately, the player can still figure out how the AI will react and play accordinly. If you want extremely dynamic battles, the only place that's possible is against real people.

I don't care about smart AI, I care about AI that can walk two steps to the left to get around an obstruction. It's not rocket science. More importantly, I wasn't so much complaining about the AI directly as I was that they try to band-aid it by making it as hard as possible to play without exploiting those AI bugs. If you're the kind of player who has fun actually fighting the monsters, you will have a miserable time in the Domain of Anguish because actually attempting to fight the monsters is suicidal. You are forced to hug the walls, bodyblock, and play those stupid AI games to kill as many monsters as possible without actually fighting them.

TiNkLeR · Dec 04, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Anyone has beat the quest yet?

I want to confirm some things about the "Mission" since i have little information about it.

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

I don't care about smart AI, I care about AI that can walk two steps to the left to get around an obstruction. It's not rocket science. More importantly, I wasn't so much complaining about the AI directly as I was that they try to band-aid it by making it as hard as possible to play without exploiting those AI bugs. If you're the kind of player who has fun actually fighting the monsters, you will have a miserable time in the Domain of Anguish because actually attempting to fight the monsters is suicidal. You are forced to hug the walls, bodyblock, and play those stupid AI games to kill as many monsters as possible without actually fighting them.

Well, you already have that though. You can do that through all of Nightfall. The torment monsters were fairly difficult, and you can still engage them in all out combat. However, how do you propose to up the difficulty then? You can either make the AI smarter (which is incredibly hard to do), or you can just up the damage. If you can propose a better alternative, I'm sure people are willing to listen.

GoldDragon · Dec 04, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Anyone know what the coffer does? Please no hypothetical answers. If someone knows, please reply. I've read much of this post but may have missed it.

Ozric · Dec 04, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by XsX

I've been hearing rangers are much needed in Domain of Anguish, something to do with changing attacks to cold damage. Either way I'm at the moment trying to get my ranger there at a rapid speed to either trap or use winter on them.

Yeah, Greater Conflaguration and Winter are being used with Mantra of Frost to mitigate the high damage until some good shutdown builds are hammered out. Not being used on every trip, but it's a simple and effective means to lower the baddies damage output.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bocjo Bassannn

Well down to two districts wonder how many by friday.... I think this is the first time a new area has opend up that floped so quickly. Everyone seems annoyed, mostly chest runing groups forming up now. Yeah and dont forget this is supposed to be fun.

After about 300 tries or so at the city mission I finaly got to see the gates of the city.... Pulled the first mob out and poof error 7 gg lost our heal monk 2 and half hrs of work... yes WORK down the drain. Failing a quest after several tries due to error7 ... yes we know your working to fix that simply isnt fun its insanely annoying... Every single group that I have been with that has done semi decently has had an error 7 ususally looseing a crucial person in our build resulting in us simply haveing to resign and start over again. This could be eased some by haveing a larger team size say 12 people then if your skilled you can afford to loose one tank because there is room for 2, you could even afford to loose a monk to error 7 if you set up correctly but as it is now. Looseing one player could mean no heals no tank no damage after several hrs of work.

Sorry to hear your parties are having connection problems. I've been lucky in that I haven't seen anyone err=7 in any of my parties,...and if the group makeup is bad we've seem to discover quite quickly where the weak link is and start over. I certainly haven't seen any group having to take more than 10 minutes to form and start the quest.

Your comment though on the area flopping though is ludicrous. Maybe there are 2 districts right now. Then again it's very early afternoon on a Monday right now in the US, and peolple work, go to school, etc. Apart from this thread, I haven't seen anyone annoyed. Then again those that are happy with DoA as it is are probably in it, rather than posting about it.

It's fine how it is. Doesn't seem to me to be any more difficult than UW.

Some of these post remind me of a poster back on the official guildwars forum back during the beta of Prophecies. Simply would not stop posting incessantly over and over on the difficulty level of The Wilds mission. How it did not appeal to the casual gamer in the least,.. would alienate most of the player base, etc. etc. etc. Can't remember the name of that guy but I'm beginning to think he's still playing GW, and still posting.

yo home boi · Dec 04, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

ARGH im so stupid me and sum guildies got right through the first quest killed the boss etc with 1 leaver and i didnt take the stinking quest at the outpost so i have to do all ova again!!!

MelechRic · Dec 04, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiNkLeR

Anyone has beat the quest yet?

I want to confirm some things about the "Mission" since i have little information about it.

There's a screenshot of a team beating the city and killing the bosses in the Screenshot forum.

I've been on a team that cleared the city. One of our members got one of the green armors for her heroes. Other than that... I have no information.

Ozric · Dec 04, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

LOL great drops in DOA. You must be dreaming . All I hear is that you get non max crap most of the time. If your VERY lucky you might get a max gold from a chest but thats like 1 in 500 if not more. Yes you can get a gem IF you manage to finish the quest. But I see a several people CLAIMING to of finished one of these quests BUT as yet NO PROOF.

I hadn't been lucky enough to get a gemstone drop randomly but I've seen several people that have, and up to 4 drop in the city quest before it's completion, that seems consistent with the drop rate of other valuable (more than ecto drops on my last runs in UW, a bit less than the total Obsi Shard drops on my last FoW runs).

Another poster has already directed you to some places where you can see proof where some have already completed the cities quest and maybe others, I haven't looked. They're not alone either.

Shadis · Dec 04, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I've been thinking about some comments Gaile made recently about Lightbringer and Sunspear title ranks and plans they have in the future for them. Has anyone taken into account how some of these "cool ideas" they have for the as of right now, legitimately unreachable max levels of these titles might effect the difficulty of the DoA? Especially Lightbringer.

I have a feeling that some of the future bonuses of having high Lightbringer will directly effect how people see the Domain of Anguish.